In Chapter 6, what’s going on with Guitar and the seven days? Do you “buy” or sympathize with all or any of Guitar’s explanation/defense of what the seven days are doing and why it is necessary? Why or why not? If not, what would be justice for white-on black slayings?
What do we know or suspect of what Guitar's character will develop into? How will this impact his friendship with Milkman?
Please respond with at least one quotation. Be sure to properly analyze. Please also consider 1) group mentality/peer pressure and 2) the fact that many juries, judges, policemen and lawyers at this time would have been all-white and often racially biased, as Guitar says.
As always, feel free to substitute any interesting, confusing, or intriguing quotations or moments that you notice instead of my questions. Do you notice any important themes (like naming) in these chapters? Anything that seems significant about character development or building tension in character relationships? Any questions you have?
I really encourage you to branch off on your own (or off of someone else's post) it you find it more interesting!
In this chapter we learn about Guitar's allegiance to a secret group called the seven days who kill white people for revenge for the deaths of blacks that the government doesn't do anything about. They decide to kill a random white person whenever a black person is killed. Guitar justifies killing these innocent people by saying, "It doesn't matter who did it. Each and every one of them could do it. So you just get any one of them. There are no innocent white people, because every one of them is a potential nigger-killer" (155). Guitar's justification for the killings is that every white person has the ability to go out and kill a black person, and it just takes the right situation for it to happen. He shows no remorse or guilt for his actions, and is clearly convinced he is in the right as his viewpoint won't budge, even when Milkman is arguing that he is just killing innocent people. I do not sympathize with Guitar after reading this because the people who they are killing to send their message did nothing wrong. All they are doing is murdering innocent people, and by not telling others of their message their actions do not get rid of the senseless murders of blacks either. I think that Guitar will get sucked into this group while Milkman will drift away from him as they both have very contrasting viewpoints on this situation and neither will ever be brought to the other's side.
ReplyDeleteBefore this chapter, I thought that Milkman was the more ignorant character in his relationship with Guitar. However, after reading this chapter my viewpoint has changed. After finding out that Guitar is in a group that murders a white person every time an african american person is killed makes me think that he’s crazy. Also, he says he’s just doing it to “keep the ratio the same” (155) and that the world would be a “zoo” if the group did not exist. Killing people simply to “keep the ratio the same” is pointless and it will inevitably cause many innocent whole hearted people to die. It annoys me that Guitar thinks that the reason why he’s killing people is so much better than the reasons that white people kill african americans. Guitar argues that because he doesn’t enjoy doing it and because he’s not doing it for a selfish reason, the fact that he’s killing people doesn’t count as a bad thing. Within this conversation, Milkman makes a bunch of very reasonable and valid points like “why can’t you just hunt down the ones that did the killing? and “If you do it enough, you can just do it to anybody” (161). While Guitar strives to bring justice to the world, Milkman is challenging the extreme way that he goes about it. I agree with Milkman in this chapter and think that he’s being the more reasonable and mature character. Usually he’s the one making irrational decisions but in this case it’s the other way around. I agree with Jason in that their strong opposing viewpoints will eventually lead to the end of their friendship
DeleteI definitely agree with SaraAnn because before reading this chapter, I thought Guitar was more knowledgable about the social injustices in society. When Milkman was younger, he just observed how others reacted to African Americans being brutally killed. Guitar is more vocal with the older generation while Milkman seems passive because it doesn't immediately concern him. However, I completely agree with Milkman's reaction to Seven Days. He doesn't question Guitar's anger towards whites because what they're doing is wrong, but how Seven Days decides to respond. Guitar argues that all white people are the same and any will kill blacks if given the chance, but Milkman argues that he's "missing the point" and "some whites made sacrifices for Negroes. Real sacrifices" (156). Milkman is able to separate whites rationally because he is more detached from the situation than Guitar is. However, I obviously disagree with Guitar because he makes general statements to try and make his actions correct. While I do understand that at the time "a black man is a victim of a crime only when a white man says he is" (160), that doesn't excuse him from killing completely innocent whites as retaliation. As Milkman and Guitar continue to argue over the mission of Seven Days, Guitar ends the conversation by saying "That's funny. I'm scared for you too" (161) after Milkman says he's scared for what Guitar is getting himself into. This foreshadows an end in their friendship to me. Before, we talked in class about Milkman as an individual. He seems to be pretty passionate about the skewed moral compass behind the Seven Days reasoning, so this might be the topic that brings him out of being a passive character. He voices concern that because the Seven Days are killing innocent whites, they might begin to kill innocent blacks too. For the first time, Milkman and Guitar are on different sides. Milkman might get in the way of Guitar's plan, and I don't know if Guitar will choose his childhood friend over his life work for equality.
DeleteAs we learn more about Guitar's affiliation to the Seven Days, we find that---as Milkman slightly points out---he fellows a "do anything, even violence, for justice" motto preached by Malcolm X rather than non-violence led by Martin Luther King. Despite the atrocities and injustice, I do not "buy" this method of getting back at the whites. Even Milkman, who is evidently less educated by has some sort of moral compass, questions his friends intensions. To this, Guitar simply replies, "I told you. Numbers. Balance. Ratio" (158). Which is ironic in that Guitar sees these whites just as numbers and not individual, just as how the whites may see the blacks as a mass instead of human beings. Furthermore, I don't think Guitar actually knows enough about the issue to be taking such actions. He claims that any white could become a murderer as they are "unnatural" and specifically points out FDR, who, in actually created the FEPC, supporting the Civil Rights Movement. On a different note, I think it's important to note that the day that Guitar is assigned to is Sunday, the day people go to church. And as the book is titled 'Song of Solomon' with numerous biblical references in names, there is a juxtaposition between the holiness of Sundays and the atrocity that can result as a revenge to another sin (Guitar going around and killing innocent whites).
ReplyDeleteI agree strongly with Kako. This concept of: "Numbers. Balance. Ratio" (158,) is extremley disturbing. When looking back into history some of the most ruthless rulers followed this notion. Men like Adolf Hitler who justified the industrial slaughter of jews and many other ethnic groups in order to strengthen the Aryan race, essentially were tying to "balance out" groups. The concept of seeking revenge upon groups in my opinion is morally wrong. However, it is beyond morally wrong if in order to seek revenge upon a group, people are being slaughtered because of their indirect affiliations. As Milkman points out it is one thing for the group to be vocal about their operations in order to stop white people from killing blacks. However, Milkman doesn't understand "what's the secrecy for" (158). I agree with Milkman on this point. If whites are killing blacks for no reason, blacks have the right to respond. If the group is vocal about their physical actions (even though I personally do not support) it might cause less killings by whites and thus the group will stop its operations. However, with this back and forth secrecy of killing each other's people how will it end?
DeleteJonny Schwartz
Guitar reveals to Milkman in this Chapter that he believes that he has a moral basis to kill innocent whites. Guitar lacks the ability to differentiate between different types of whites. During the time period in which the book takes place, whites were very divided in regards to how they felt about civil rights. Some were racists while others did everything in their power to fight for Civil Rights. Yet Guitar still views every white as a “potential nigger-killer”.(155) Guitar calls whites “unnatural” throughout the chapter, this basis of thinking is very similar to Adolf Hitler’s way of thinking. Hitler thought that jews were inferior and unnatural and that he was acting in the right by getting rid of them. Guitar shares the same way cold-blooded emotionless qualities that Hitler and the nazis had. Guitar states that the “numbers have to remain static”(158), he views white people as statistics, and doesn’t understand that everyone has their own story and life and perhaps they sympathize with blacks. Guitar is not wrong in thinking that there needs to be something done about the indiscriminate killing of African Americans, yet he is wrong in the way he goes about trying to make a change.
ReplyDeleteJason F
Guitar's justification and reasoning for the actions of the Seven Days is that the "ratio" of blacks to whites must be kept "the same" (155). Milkman points out that these murders are wrong and that Guitar's actions make him on par with the whites who murder blacks. To this, Guitar argues that he is different in a sense that he is "reasonable" and that he "hate"s and is "afraid to do it" (157). Even though he does not enjoy carrying out these murders, Guitar seems to convince himself that he is doing what is right, that he is more "reasonable" and better than others, and that he and the Seven Days are the ones that stand on a moral high ground. I disagree with all of Guitar's justifications and believe that due to his illusion that he is doing what is right, Guitar will begin to commit even more severe crimes in order to carry out what he believes to be justice.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Franklin that none of Guitar's justifications for his actions are at all reasonable or in any way supportable. The fact that Guitar is maniacally focused on the "Numbers. Balance. Ratio" (158) shows that he is exemplifying psychopathic behavior. He is behaving like a stone-cold killing machine by not considering his victim's human lives when killing them, but rather doing it for a "greater good" of keeping the ratio. Guitar's behavior is quite worrisome and very unexpected because he never exemplified any of these frightening tendencies before.
DeleteAnother interesting aspect of this chapter that jumped out at me was the different mindsets and ideologies which Milkman and Guitar had on the matter if "the ratio". Milkman urged that the killings were wrong because it is essential for everyone to think of black and whites as people rather than separate races, differing them by the color of their skin. But Guitar is much more of a conservative mindset and he constantly highlights the difference between blacks and whites. I found it interesting that Morrison would subtly incorporate the liberal-conservative political debate in a conversation between two best friends.
Although I agree with a lot of what’s been said as far as Guitar’s simplistic view of justice, I think that there is a lot more to Guitar’s position than black-and-white morality. Guitar argues that belief and morality is an innate characteristic, and points to prominent white figures in order to prove his point. He points out that “if Kennedy got drunk and bored and was sitting around a potbellied stove in Mississippi, he might join a lynching party just for the hell of it” (156), yet no matter what position Guitar would ever be in, he “wouldn’t join one no matter how drunk [he] was or how bored” (156). Guitar attributes white brutality to white “unnaturalness” rather than passion or hatred. Guitar’s point has nothing to do with the men he uses as examples. If anything, the prominence of FDR in the Civil Rights Movement strengthens his argument that white brutality is innate. This stands in sharp contrast to African American justification of murders, which were considered “legitimate because they were committed in the heat of passion” (100). Whether or not Guitar acts primarily out of love for the African American community or for hatred of whites, he justifies it by virtue of his deep-seated passion.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Guitar is the only young member of the Seven Days suggests that this radicalism is an outdated form of advocacy, During the mid 1960s, MLK’s passive resistance movement was in full swing, yet Morrison does not present any characters who adhere to King’s philosophy. This may be in order to criticize Guitar’s belief that whites are inherently “unnatural” and that violence is justified in the face of passion.
Do you think it is true that even someone like JFK (who became positively associated with Civil Rights even though it is clear now that he had some mixed feelings), if the conditions were right, would join a lynching party?
DeleteGuitar’s unequivocal lack of trust towards white people is startling to me in a way that feels sickly calculated and logical. The Seven Days reminds me a lot of the Weather Underground from the anti-Vietnam movement of the 1970s—for every disagreeable action the United States government took, the Weather Underground struck back with violence: planting bombs in federal buildings, public areas, etc. Similarly, the Seven Days kills a random white person for every black person killed on a given day. In response to Milkman’s disgust regarding the erratic attacks on “people,” Guitar responds coolly, “Not people. White people” (155). Guitar sets white people into a category unto their own, suggesting that they don’t deserve the status of “people”. They aren’t to be trusted according to him, because anyone white “could do it….There are no innocent white people, because every one of them is a potential n-killer, if not an actual one” (155). On pages 156 to 157, Guitar even goes so far as to suggest that people like JFK, Albert Schweitzer, Eleanor Roosevelt, and FDR would possibly participate in lynching if intoxicated/drugged enough and with the a certain type of crowd of white people because it’s a genetically inherited propensity of white people, “the structure in their chromosomes” (157). What is scariest to me about Guitar’s spiel is that the reader gets the impression that he has thought for a long time about this. He’s intrinsically intelligent with an inclination to politics, yet this form of violence is what his solution is. It makes sense in the most grisly way possible: for each black life that’s taken, a white life must be taken as a reprisal.
ReplyDeleteNo. white people are unnatural. (156). This quote convinces me not to be sympathetic with Guitar's cause. I can understand that he is very upset with what white people are doing, but I don't think he sees that he himself is becoming racist. Saying that white people are unnatural is saying that white people as whole are unnatural and it is no different than the arguments that the white people were making to lynch the black people. Just randomly killing white people is not a just cause if they wanted to do anything remotely similar it would be killing the killers and even that would not solve anything. It does not help society as a whole advance. The best justice would be to persevere and achieve success. What Guitar is doing is as unjustifiable as what the white people are doing. Guitar is turning into a simple murderer under the guise of trying to cure the racism and he is also himself become as racist as the KKK was.
ReplyDeleteIt always seemed to me that Guirtar was very thoughtful and smart person. It looked like he was trying to have a good impact on Milkman and turn him into more responsible person. But today I saw a completely different, violent and dangerous side of Guitar. What is scary is how calm Guitar is while telling his story. It is scary to see a whole new, completely different side of Guitar.
ReplyDeleteOn another hand, I was very happy to see Milkman's other side of his character. He sounded very thoughtful and profound. By saying "Why don’t you just hunt down the ones who did the killing? Why kill innocent people?" he demonstrated that he isn't just a party animal who chases every girl he sees, but that he can be very responsible.
Any one know anything about the Black Power movement or Black Panthers? How is Morrison drawing on this history to inform Guitar and the 7 days?
ReplyDeleteIs there any justification for Guitar's actions? Any sympathy? Say you were hell-bent on defending him or playing devil's advocate with your classmates--what would you say?
ReplyDeleteI think the growing divide between Guitar and Milkman foreshadows the split in the Civil Rights Movement in the late 1960s. The younger, more revolutionary wings of the older groups of the movement began to accuse the older generation of passivity. Guitar condemns those who just “shake their heads” and say “Eh, eh, eh, ain’t that a shame?” (154). This is a criticism of Milkman, who seems relatively indifferent to the movement that is gaining momentum around him, and scorns Guitar’s “race bag” (154). This stems from their disparity in income and social status. Milkman is complacent because he has had everything pretty much handed to him on a silver platter. His life is full of easy conquests: money, women, home, security, etc. Guitar has had to work for everything, and is thus more aware of the urgency of inequality. It is interesting that Guitar is the one criticizing Milkman for his passivity because he is actually older than Milkman, while it is traditionally the role of the young to challenge the old for their hesitance. This debate between the two men foreshadows the divergence from the philosophy of “passive” resistance. Nonviolent resistance was not actually passive at all, but it was seen as too slow and too submissive. Malcom X’s famous philosophy of self-defense “by any means necessary” and the Black Panther Party’s emphasis on obtaining and publicly showing guns were the most obvious manifestations of this new ideology. Guitar’s Seven Days group is an extremist version of this more radical and violent strain.
ReplyDeleteThe split between Milkman and Guitar also foreshadows the shift toward working for economic equality. On Sojourn we learned how Martin Luther King’s philosophy was shifting toward economic equity, and coming closer to that of Malcom X’s (whose philosophy was evolving after he went on hajj and before he was killed), toward the end of his life. He said, “The riot is the language of the unheard,” and publicized the idea that urban violence and crime stems from the desperation and frustration of crippling poverty.
The younger, more radical part of the movement, particularly SNCC, also shifted away from cooperation with whites. This tension shows when Milkman insists, “Some whites made sacrifices for Negroes,” but Guitar contemptuously responds, “If Kennedy got drunk and bored and was sitting around a potbellied stove in Mississippi, he might join a lynching party just for the hell of it” (156). Guitar believes that whites aren’t people and are unnatural, and thus can’t be trusted or worked with, while Milkman believes some whites have made great sacrifices for the movement, and can be innocent. The shift away from cooperation with whites went hand in hand with a shift in goals from integration to separatism and self-sufficiency.
Before Guitar opens up to Milkman about his involvement in the Seven Days, he describes his relationship with Guitar as a "one way street" because he always honest and open with Guitar but Guitar is secretive and critical. The Seven Days did remind me of the Black Panthers a bit because the Panthers were a form of more radical, violent revolt as apposed to the earlier practice of Civil Disobedience in restaurants or on buses. I agree with Guitar when he states that all crimes against black or white people is judged by "their (white) law and their courts" (154). Crimes against black people are taken less seriously and probably even dismissed. However that does not mean there are, "no innocent white people". There is never justification for a person of any race who is innocent. Guitar says if he is sober, he is actually terrified to commit murder. To me, this suggests that he was pressured by the older group members to join. Guitar has always aspired to be with people who are older than him, maybe for a popular reputation. I think that is why he is is so condescending to Milkman and how he got involved with The Seven Days. On a side note, Milkman is still transforming into who his father is, and how he treats women. When Guitar asks what he is going to do about Hagar, Milkman replies, "I did what you do to some women every six months-called the whole thing off" (152). This demonstrates that dating women is a game to Milkman because even if the woman he is dating cares a lot about him, if she is in it for the long haul, Milkman is just looking for six months of bragging rights and sex.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Eli about the Black Panthers point. There is a striking similarity between Guitar's Seven Day group and the Black Panthers and Black Power movement. The term Black Power was coined by Stokely Carmichael, who was involved with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee at the time. This came towards the end of the Civil Rights Movement in 1966 and there was a significant shift in focus. Instead of focusing on MLK's inclusive mentality, the SNCC now adapted more of Malcolm X's black supremacy and separation ideas. This mindset is what is presented in the book through Guitar, this idea of separation being the only way to value each human for who he is. Guitar, however, takes it to the extreme by calling white people "unnatural" (156) and claiming that the only way to reach equality, is to settle some sort of natural score with the white people. What really got me upset, though, was the part when Guitar says that they don't need to prove any of this difference scientifically because the white people did not do so before they killed blacks. Guitar claims he is "reasonable" (157) and not angry, which are both obviously not true in this case. This is where Eli's point about pressure from the elders comes in because throughout the book, I believed Guitar was very reasonable and fair-minded. There were glimpses of a black superiority mindset, such as when he was a little child and he corrected the old white lady on her misspelling, but for the most part, he was a rational guy. I really wonder what happened to turn him into such a close-minded, hate driven character.
DeleteBy: Cecelia Hartigan
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone above, but I'll try to play devil's advocate:
I think that even though Guitar's thought process is skewed on why he should kill white people; he does try to make clear to Milkman that he isn't killing for a reaction (for people to pay attention to him). In the time period black were being killed for praise, for money, for a vengeance and for many other reasons; where as the Seven days are killing whites for no reason, but simply "[t]o keep the ratio the same"(155). Guitar explains to Milkman in a very laid back manner what his group does. To me for someone to be so tranquil about something they do, there is no gusto to what they do and therefore no malice. How could Guitar have an twisted reason for killing whites if Guitar's reason is simply based on science. Guitar later goes on to explain to Milkman how tranquil whites are about killing blacks. Guitar asks Milkman, "Did they prove anything scientifically about us before they killed us?"(157). Clearly whites used science later to help, as a way out, of being punished. Why can't black do the same thing, why do the rules have to be different for them? Whites thought if they simply used falsified science to explain why they murdered people they could get away with a horrendous crime. Therefore why should Guitar bow down to the white race, when they show no sensitivity to killing his race. In the end Guitar is simply doing to whites what whites do to him; a tit for a tat.
I think that we could compare Guitar's position to the position of those who advocate the death penalty.
ReplyDeletePeople who agree with the death penalty say that it is justified since they are killing "reasonably"…they don't understand that when the government kills a person by fatal injection or shooting squad or electric chair, they are not acting morally, and they are proving themselves just as bad as the murderers.
There is no such thing as "killing reasonably"…that is an enormous oxymoron.
In order to be fully respected by other countries around the world, and prove that they are above the flaws of society, the US should eliminate the death penalty, and in order for blacks to be successful in the civil rights era, they had to rise above the white barbarism that existed in their society and prove that they were in fact superior in how they dealt with injustice; this is what was seen with the courageous Dr. King. Milkman also displays this same idea when he says to Guitar, "If they are as bad, as unnatural, as you say, why do you want to be like them? Don't you want to be better than they are?" (157)
I do not agree at all with how Guitar claimed that given the conditions, any white person would join a lynching party. Every human has different views of the world, and you cannot generalize a whole race and say that given the circumstances they would be extremely violent.
I find it crazy that Guitar chooses to join the seven days group. Milkman brings up some great points about why what Guitar is doing is crazy when he asks about "the nice ones? some whites made sacrifices for Negroes. Real sacrifices" (156) Guitar seems to be completely brainwashed with fury against white people because even when Milkman tells him that he has to be angry in order to do those things Milkman refuses and says that it is out of love for the black people that have been killed, that he does it. I find his logic very unreasonable because he's killing completely innocent white people. Even if the white men are killing completely innocent black men and getting no penalty, Guitar and the seven days group should not fight back. They need to show that they are the better man because I feel that when Guitar and his seven days group kill innocent white people, it'ss just give the white men more justification in killing innocent black people. I think it's crazy that Guitar is so easily convinced into becoming a murderer by the seven days group. I would have thought that since Guitar talks so much sense into Milkman, he would find a way to talk sense into himself now.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what people are saying about Guitar. The most interesting quote for me was the answer that Guitar gave to Milkman after he asked if he was going to kill people. “Not people, white people” (155) The repetition of people and how in the same statement Guitar simultaneously denies and accepts that white people are people just really shocked me. Morrison did a really amazing thing about demonstrating how twisted logic can really become with radical groups. The thought process that Guitar has is the same process that many people have when committing genocide or doing some other equally as horrible crime. Also, I noticed a lot about how he compared the seven days to the Klan, which I also, found quite disturbing.
ReplyDeleteSomethings I am confused about is has Guitar actually killed anyone yet? Also, when Guitars brainwashing begin. Guitar as most people has been saying has been portrayed as a reasonable character thus far it takes a lot of to turn him into an indiscriminate killer. This must have been going on for a while to change him this much, or at least a lot of those anti-white meetings held by the seven days. I feel bad for disappointed, and scared for Guitar, he probably has no idea or too brainwashed to have any idea what he is actually doing.
I think it is very weird that Guitar kills white people because a different white person kills a black person. Milkman says "You kill and you don't kill the killers. You kill innocent people."(159) Milkman makes a great point that Guitar is killing random people who have done nothing wrong for revenge of the death of a black man. Guitar should be trying to find people who have killed black people rather than killing random people on the streets. He justifies this by saying there are no innocent people that are white and they deserve to die because they are unnatural. Guitar saying white people are unnatural is very strange to me. He does not give a reason why all white people are unnatural but he keeps on using it to describe white people and justify the killings he is making. He kills even white people who have been helping whites. He shows no trust in the white community. I feel that this black on white violence can be solved peacefully if blacks could gather up in community and protest against the KKK and other white supremacists just like the civil rights movement.
ReplyDeleteI think it is absolutely understandable what Guitar is up to; he is brainwashed by the racist society and the Seven Days group members that what he does is completely justified and that he is actually doing good to the world. If we look at his use of language, he not only generalizes the behavior of the white race but he claims that “the disease they have is in their blood, in the structure of their chromosomes” (157). However outrageous this statement is, it is what he truly believes because it is what he is told is the truth. We all like to believe that we are truly individual, that we always act as we genuinely feel. However, almost all of our judgments are created by the influences of our parents, peers, media, and the environment we live in - just like the judgments of Guitar. We think back to the time period when racism was still very prominent in our society and say that it was abhorrent, but back then, almost everyone went with what everyone else seemed to believe. Guitar clearly gets this piece of information (obviously a wrong one) from someone else, for he has no way of proving it yet is confident enough about it. Mob psychology compels humans to act unjustifiably, and Guitar is undeniably a victim of brainwashing.
ReplyDelete